Could otome games help to better understand women?
|#26 by pendelhaven|
2018-10-01 at 11:03
|#25 quote me where I said ALL wamenz are liarsLast modified on 2018-10-01 at 11:05|
|#27 by lordnight|
2018-10-01 at 11:18
None, I just assume that you do from your posts that I read.
|#28 by pendelhaven|
2018-10-01 at 11:29
no, you're projecting
|#29 by sakurakoi|
2018-10-01 at 11:33
She said that she simply likes to see that particular 'bad boy' grew an interest in her and how he manage his internal conflict in how to court her... It's cute apparently.To dig a bit deeper: It's related to a sense of superiority when a bad boy is good to them and of course...
all "romance" comes down to the simple fact of wanting your offspring to produce the best offspring
hence why males prefer good looks and amiable personalities, heroines do not have to be any useful/do anything
while females prefer resourcefulness, no hero is useless even if they are poor
of course different people are stuck at or focus on different parts of this greater goal, whether...
-one has to get a partner first
-being able to produce offspring
-offering the best environment for the offspring
-getting the best mate for your offspring
Most Males are already stuck at finding a partner, which is also theirs ofc. This results in NTR being quite popular for those who are desperate and rape being more common
Most Females however are focused on the latter two but...
of course there are females which are that ugly in- and outside that they do not get a partner while males who succeed in the first steps will deal with the latter, like slaves since being unable to keep up the status quo is akin to losing all control (it goes without saying what behavior will manifest if they try to cling to it)
#25 quote me where I said ALL wamenz are liarsWell, aren't they and everyone anyway?~Last modified on 2018-10-01 at 15:29
|#30 by pendelhaven|
2018-10-01 at 11:40
Well, aren't they and everyone anyway?~
that's the spoiler I'm trying to avoid.
I still want to raise this question
why is it that almost all VNs with male protag has at least one token loli while I don't see a single otoge featuring a shota?
|#31 by lordnight|
2018-10-01 at 11:46
why is it that almost all VNs with male protag has at least one token loli while I don't see a single otoge featuring a shota?Oh right, I forgot this one.
There is one in Amnesia but he's just a side character.
Once again I asked my Sister about this but she said that she do not really see them as romantic interest. Another subjective opinion it seems.
|#32 by pendelhaven|
2018-10-01 at 15:28
Another subjective opinion it seems.
just like 99% of women. sasuga wamenz. and you dare accuse me of being a waman hater?
|#33 by sakurakoi|
2018-10-01 at 15:29
do not really see them as romantic interest. Another subjective opinion it seems.well, unlike Lolicon, Shotacon is purely a fetish and there is no romance in that
i.e shotas are not a target of "normal" affection but only lust (with them being no good if they can't keep it up~). After all, males are expected to be resourceful (instead of just producing offspring) and boys can at best be groomed into being the ideal man... but that's not some "maidenly" romance either, rather a motherly, fetish. Needless to say, boy toys, which may very well be grown men, are reserved to females which already have enough resources to spoil their spawn rotten.
Hence why also most strong&independent female protagonists are usually just princesses, nobles and high society or are otherwise unique (and able to raise resources easily) that only do worry about being married to the wrong one, if they are not incidentally reincarnated/transmigrated into a villainess noble girl of an Otome Game who "knows the end of being covered in semen while being visibly pregnant" (if not even ending up dead~).
|#34 by bunnyadvocate|
2018-10-01 at 15:39
|It's already been pointed out that if you're expected realistic portrayals of women in otomes then you're going to be disappointed, but that doesn't mean it's worthless in understanding women. For a start, for those whose only experience with women is through eroge, it can help humanise women. They aren't just sitting around idly waiting for the protag to whisk them off their feet, they have agency, and their own preferences and tastes that might not align with the first dude to ask them out.|
It can also help highlight the subtle differences in how genders are portrayed when you switch perspective, where one gender is meant to take the lead in dating for example. The fanservice differences are interesting too, whereas male protags are much more likely to be faceless, female protags are much more likely to have customisable names.
So overall, I think there is some benefit to men reading otomes, just don't apply it directly to the real world (which is true of pretty much all VNs).
|#35 by bobjr2000|
2018-10-01 at 16:11
|I would take it with a grain of salt. Yes you can probably learn some things but this could be said true of most things like internet, books, magazines ect. They also can have a lot of wrong or simply subjective information. If you have 0 interaction with women in daily life then yes this could help. |
Otherwise stuff mention above books, magazines written by women for women probably has better info but still subjective. Even here looking to ask if understand men better can clearly see different answers and views an doesn't all apply. Obviously just talking to women or more to point women interested in will give best/fast and most accurate information.
I would compare it to say watching bunch of war movies and expecting to think your a soldier, you might learn some terms and even useful info about guns but your probably not going to be a good soldier.
|#36 by kominarachromer|
2018-10-01 at 16:19
|#34 It is interesting to read otome for some perspective on women's differing tastes and mentalities, but you could get the same experience from reading, say, a shoujo/josei manga or a romance novel.|
I'd also like to bring up that there are several bishoujo games that are written by women. Gun-Katana - Non-Human-Killer, Sengoku Rance, and Gore Screaming Show are a few, off the top of my head. Now, I'm not saying you should whip out your Hyper Weapon in front of every girl you see, but these can also help understand the mindset that female writers write with; and Rance actually has a large female audience from what I've heard.
|#37 by sakurakoi|
2018-10-01 at 17:17
a shoujo/josei manga or a romance novelwell... are there shoujo/josei games or VNs? What is actually the difference between a shoujo manga, novel or anime and an Otome Game? Only those shoujo works without romance are different... by focusing on female companionship.
Obviously just talking to women or more to point women interested in will give best/fast and most accurate information.Well, if they do not lie, they sure tend to and yes, an authoress can be said to be more honest, obviously it is not about 1 to 1 portrayal of interactions in reality but like it is always the case, a general assessment is all one is able to anyway merely by looking what's not there ever and what is there often, turns out people are still different after all. Human interaction always is bound to predictability and chance for there are too many factors we will never be able to know.
I would compare it to say watching bunch of war movies and expecting to think your a soldier, you might learn some terms and even useful info about guns but your probably not going to be a good soldier.Last time I checked, female is not a profession and indeed, and it should be obvious, works written by those which had a profession or one close to it will write a more accurate one than those which have less experience. Same applies to sports and do not eben get me started on history.
Last but not least, soldiers, eh? Even trained soldiers are not automatically good soldiers due to the simple fact that it is one heck of a job when it turns serious... needless to say, very few living Japanese can write well about war as if they have been there, for they had been there. No comparison could be worse, otherwise, could I be a good backer (even though we are only talking here about understanding them) if I consume a work with a baker (or patissier)?
bishoujo games that are written by women. Gun-Katana - Non-Human-Killer, Sengoku Rance, and Gore Screaming Show are a fewThose are bishoujo games, huh? Yeah, a very broad term I see... it's all hardcore which is obviously less geared towards female and males but it depends on whether that's your fetish or not. Here now however females prefer non-visual pornography more than males hence why their share in the market is always lower while Erotica sure attracts 'em (18+ Otome Games are very rare), unless they are into "Bee el" or similar where it is bishounen then again thou'
|#38 by kominarachromer|
2018-10-01 at 17:30
|#37 I believe otome games are aimed at a slightly older audience than most shoujo, and at a significantly younger audience than most josei. Don't quote me on that though.|
Bishoujo just means a game featuring attractive girls aimed at a primarily male audience. Basically every Japanese commercial title on the database that isn't otome, yaoi, or doujin soft falls into the category. And while Black Cyc is definitely on the extreme side, I wouldn't call Rance "hardcore"; it's pretty vanilla by AS standards, at least, and it's one of the most consistently popular H-RPG series of all time, so it must have some sort of mass appeal.
|#39 by dk382|
2018-10-01 at 17:34
|This entire thread is pretty disgusting. People, do not engage with Pendelhaven. He is not interested in having a discussion in good faith.|
Mods, please just ban him already. This has gotten ridiculous.
|#40 by minah|
2018-10-01 at 17:36
|^ Seconded, thanks.|
|#41 by pendelhaven|
2018-10-01 at 17:37
He is not interested in having a discussion in good faith.
that's some serious accusation I hope you're ready to be burned. Quote me where I didn't had good faith
oh, and don't run awayLast modified on 2018-10-01 at 17:37
|#42 by yorhel|
2018-10-01 at 17:46
Quote me where I didn't had good faithThe fact that you have to derail almost every discussion with your personal vendetta against adult women. It's getting really tiresome, and I suggest we drop that discussion in this thread. Create a new one thread if you insist.
|#43 by pendelhaven|
2018-10-01 at 17:52
is not "bad faith" in the same way personal experience is nowhere near bad faith. plus the thread title has "understanding women" in it. but yeah, it might go out of hand at this point.
|#44 by behappyeveryday|
2018-10-05 at 09:45
|@35 I personally think what this all depends on your objective, why you want to understand women. If you want to be attractive and be popular with women then you should take advice from a guy who is already good with women (instead of asking them). Here I just want to see different opinions about the topic to satisfy my curiosity. :)|
At least from this poll we could see what here on vndb only about 20-25% of users are women.Last modified on 2018-10-05 at 09:50
|#45 by bobjr2000|
2018-10-05 at 18:15
|Like I said a lot better resources to understanding women in general such as women studies class. Or the many books written that have nothing to do with sex or dating. If your goal is maybe to understand women and some men that play otome games and what attracts them to it this would be a good search.|
This is a vn assuming in japanese target is japanese audience. But even by race, ethnicity, age, social class, religion, can vastly change how people act and react to world. If your objective is to understanding women then I would greatly enhance search beyond japanese comics on and offline. Just saying if reading this would give you no understanding of say poor black women in america or young woman living in Saudi Arabia with very few rights, or even North Korea which is much closer to japan.
|#46 by pillostorm|
2018-10-07 at 05:38
|[WARNING: Incoming walls of text with random stuff you'll probably find boring or annoying. Please read only if you're ACTUALLY interested in reading a female's opinion on this subject. Stupid-ass question btw, I don't know what's there to "understand".]|
Seeing a man changing for/showing his good side to an ordinary girl (such as the protagonist/player) is SUPER moe; some girls like to dominate men sexually because it's unusual or thrilling or whatever. Some girls like turning a "bad guy"-type character good or kind. Some girls like the challenge of "fixing" and turning close-minded men who are horrible people with horrible mindsets (such as a certain "character" we all now) into decent people. The idea that you can become special to an ideal guy and be treated differently by him is exciting. Some girls like to be protected by guys, too, and/or prefer to be submissive. But in a way, it's almost always a mutual dominance/submission thing: the guy is weak against you, and you're weak against him. Of course there are extreme masochists who only want to be used by hot boys (hence shit like DiaLovers or the even bigger shit Boyfriend to Death) and extreme sadists who only read these things to see how the cute males suffer, but some people like me just want mutual love, trust and respect (pretty fucking lame, I know), which is what I find cute and appealing (maybe with a bit of deviant stuff though).
As for me, I absolutely adore the delinquent and megane archetypes. The latter, mainly because of my glasses/uniform fetish and how I've associated the archetype with perfection/discipline and subsequently corruption (be it sexual or otherwise), so it's predominantly a sexual thing for me; the former, because 1. they're super badass, manly and cool (not to mention attractive), makes me want to be like them and 2. everyone in this world has a soft/sad side to them, therefore anime delinquents do too, and I find the contrast it makes against their usual badass as fuck side very moe, adorable, cute, and wonderful, so this one goes beyond lust and may have something to do with purification.
There are otome games with heroes that look like kids/are years younger than the teenage protagonist and act very childish. I'd say the "shota-type" is present in a huge amount of otome games. The low percentage of otome eroge may why there isn't shota porn in the genre, and that's the case probably because women, in general, simply aren't as attracted to visual porn as men. Maybe. (This is a question a certain someone made on the thread's first page and I wanted to answer it since I first read it.) Loli and shota aren't exact equivalents, in my opinion, but I couldn't tell exactly why.
There are women who don't like dull otome protagonists with no personality or typical nice, shy Japanese teenagers, they're usually the ones who don't play those games to self-insert, but rather because they're interested in the story, character develpment and interactions; they don't play them to fall in love. So they vastly prefer girl MCs with a good, unusual personality and design, something that makes you root for her, fall for her or even want to be her.
On the other hand, there are women who play otome games because they want to "fall in love", so they self-insert, and either play the ones where there's a nameable non-character as the protagonist or go look for one where the MC is a decent character and as similar as possible to them, because most of the time the possible actions and reactions of the former aren't what you'd actually do if you were in that situation, so it can break immersion. But even so, it's stupid to assume that all girls who play otome games are as personality-less and bland as those MCs. Those protagonists are just a blank slate for girls to put their own image and personality in them (most of the time, at least). And anyway, what are CHOICES in VNs for? But STILL, the protagonist ALWAYS achieves great things, no matter how blank their character is, and if she doesn't, you get bad ends and the game tells you how fucking shit you are for not achieving anything in-game. Further proof that the girls these games are targeted towards aren't interested in being useless sacks of shit. (but this is aimed at certain previous replies that implied that women are all boring and useless because they like otome and its blank slate protagonists).
Most otome players are completely normal girls, just as most male galge players are completely normal guys. I don't see what's so hard to understand there. Yeah, most women don't like visual/hardcore porn as much as guys do, but that means they like to get off through other, less explicit/sexual means, and that is romance. Personally, I prefer visual porn (and wish there'd be way more R-18 otome games/VNs with focus on the hot guy's body), but cute fluffy romance (as long as it's not too cheesy and the characters don't act like fucking aliens) isn't bad either. Of course, that's just my personal taste and other women like things I don't.
I saw this thread a few days ago but I couldn't write a reply until today. I hope my input on this matter helps anyone "understand women" and otome games better, and I hope it's a new opinion to you. Sorry for the long rant.
By the way: no, I don't think you could learn "women's psychology" through otome games. But with the right mindset and point of view you could become less of a "men and women are two different species" person and a more empathetic individual towards women if you play them.Last modified on 2018-10-07 at 05:50
|#48 by bunnyadvocate|
2018-10-07 at 16:46
|#46 That's a really good post, thanks for sharing your perspective. I just have one minor quibble...|
just as most male galge players are completely normal guys.
Clearly you haven't spent enough time on the vndb forums /s
#47 I have to admit to a certain morbid curiosity about how extreme this comment must have been to get deleted. What I wouldn't give for a removeddit.com vndb equivalent right now.Last modified on 2018-10-07 at 16:46
|#49 by ramaladni|
2018-10-07 at 17:33
|#48 It was uh, something you'd rather not see lol. I'm actually surprised he could write something like that.|
|#50 by bunnyadvocate|
2018-10-07 at 18:34
#48 It was uh, something you'd rather not see lol. I'm actually surprised he could write something like that.
NooooOOooo, why would you say that? Now I'm even more curious~
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